Timothy Keller begins by presenting the time honored arguments against the nature of God and Christians in particular – intolerance and exclusivity. And he lays out his response to each of the attempts made by cultural and political leaders to rid the world of the religious binds that they blame for the issues we face today: 1) outlaw religion 2) condemn religion and 3) privatize religion.
Argument 1 – If society could outlaw religion, we would rid ourselves of the divisiveness caused by differing religions – intolerance and violence would disappear. But experimental attempts to outlaw religion in societies has instead created more violence and more intolerance. Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge, Communist China, Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany are all examples of the utter failure of the efforts to remove religion from society. Taken together, the rule of non-religious despots in the 20th Century contributed to an estimated 30 – 40 million deaths. Besides an outright attempt at banning religion, Keller argues that many believe that as science advances, the ‘need’ for religion will summarily subside. And yet, the opposite is actually occurring. As science careens forward, “Virtually all major religions are growing in number of adherents.” [p. 6] Keller believes that religion is not temporary but is instead central to the human condition and that this truth is not going to change.
Argument 2 – If we can’t get rid of religion, can’t we discourage those who claim to have “the truth” and who attempt to convert others? Can’t we just admit that all religions serve the same god, are of equal importance and create the same path to enlightenment? Keller then lays out the arguments:
— All major religions are equally valid and basically teach the same thing
— Each religion sees part of spiritual truth, but none can see the whole truth
— Religious belief is too culturally and historically conditioned to be ‘truth’
— It is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it [p. 7, 8, 9, 11]
These axioms – that Keller describes as having been repeated so frequently that they are now considered common sense – have seeped into our society and inconspicuously garnered support with believers and non-believers alike. But as Keller dismantles each axiom, we find that these arguments not only disprove themselves but reveal the self-righteousness and pride of the one making the arguments. “It is no more narrow to claim that one religion is right than to claim that one way to think about all religions (namely that all are equal) is right. We are all exclusive in our beliefs about religion, but in different ways.” [p.14]
Argument 3 – Religion is a private affair and should be kept as such. If one wants to have religion, then it should be reserved for private conversations with those who adhere to the same thoughts and ideas. Keller shows the foolishness of the person who argues against public pronouncements of religious belief because of its supposed toxicity – a case for a secular belief system that, in and of itself, is not universal, and therefore is actually faith based and has the potential to be just as toxic. His grounds are that, “…all moral positions are at least implicitly religious.” [p. 18] Calling for the complete privatization of religion in and of itself is ultimately a conundrum because it is asking to remove itself, the religious secular belief, to be removed as well.
After thoughtfully dismantling each of the arguments presented, Keller comes full circle and states that although religion has the potential to threaten world peace, Christ’s guiding principles can actually lead His followers to be agents for world peace. Not because of any inherent good they might possess, but because of who they are in Christ. He argues that because the Christian understands his inherent sinfulness and need of a Savior, he is able to see the world through a viewpoint of inclusivity not exclusivity. “God’s grace does not come to people who morally outperform others, but to those who admit their failure to perform and who acknowledge their need for a Savior.” [p. 20] We are all sinners in need of a Savior. Therefore, the Christian life – based on the life and death of Jesus Christ who died for those who hated Him and prayed for their forgiveness – should be marked by more honesty, more humility and more selfless love than any other.
Question: Which of the axioms presented by Keller resonated most with you? Do you agree with it or disagree with it? Why?
My response: The axiom that resonated most with me is “It is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it” because I have found that I actually believed this to be true. Yikes. I can’t even point to a place or time when I began to believe it to be, as Keller so aptly describes, “common sense”. But the truth is, I did. And my knee-jerk reaction is still to act as if I believe it to be true. It has been so ingrained in me to protect and respect other peoples’ feelings at all costs, even at the cost of obedience to my God. I have come to realize that my sense of their feelings isn’t necessarily – and probably isn’t – the truth. And until I state my beliefs, I have no idea if I would be offensive to them. And if I truly believe that eternal salvation comes only from knowing and loving Jesus, isn’t it not only my right, but my obligation to share when He presents the opportunity?
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” — Matthew 28:18-20
Here is the button for the participants who will be linking up to the study. Grab the code, paste it into your Reason for God post and link up below.
The one that I really identified with is “Religion is a private affair.” I hear so often that I should not express my faith. That to say “I am a Christian” might offend someone, and we should NEVER be offensive. But that same demand is not placed on any other faith these days. Other religions are allowed to espouse their beliefs, and we are supposed to quietly nod our heads and imply our support by our silence. By being “tolerant”, we are asked to ignore our own beliefs, values and morals, while they freely express theirs.
@teresa
I completely agree. It seems that we’ve internalized this idea that it is inappropriate to ever express that we might disagree with someone else’s beliefs or decisions. While at the same time internalizing that others can disagree or downplay our beliefs at will!
@teresa and ellenor’s mama, that is what I liked about Keller’s words… It’s almost like he provides tools/info to confidently share your beliefs, not feel intimidated in doing so, and to share with utmost compassion, respect and honesty.
The axiom that resonated the most with me is “It is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it.” Truth is truth, not arrogance. I do believe that sometimes Christians came come across too harshly or too in-your-face to unbelievers. However, to believe that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and to want others to believe that is not arrogance. Also, I don’t believe it’s my job to convert anybody. That’s the job of the Holy Spirit. If I think that I can convert–or strong-arm–people into believing Christianity, then I am being arrogant. My job is to speak and live the Truth. In my weakness He is made strong. Let the Holy Spirit take it from there.
Amy
totally agree!!!
yes! and when we put the burden of “saving” people on our own shoulders, we belittle the work of Christ and the Holy SPirit. also, unfortunately, as He sanctifies us and leads us from sin, we can become self-righteous and proud, which ends up causing us to view the world in a judgmental rather than compassionate way. i think this leads to a lot of the strong-arming you mention.
I’ve heard our job referred to as “laying the kindling” and the Holy Spirit’s job as “lighting the fire”. So grateful it’s all HIM 🙂
Love that analogy!
I agree, too.
So well said! Amen. I love the analogy of the Holy Spirit. Makes it easier to explain to others.
I’m not reading the book with y’all, but just wanted to pop in and say I’m so glad the discussion is going on here so I can just listen in. : ) I have this book over there on my bookshelf and think it is really good, and Stefanie you did a great job summarizing just now. I pray this blesses not only those of you reading, but those of us you share your thoughts with.
love from Monterey Bay, CA!
hey, blessed…we love monterey bay!!!
While I no doubt agree that we as Christians have a right and a holy obligation to speak the truth, I also think the ways we have gone about this, both historically and currently, have been detrimental. I think the main truth we are to speak is that a holy and just God has lovingly made a way to live at peace with Him… and in that life, which is found in Christ, we can find our created purpose. As Christians and as the Church, I feel we spend most of our time speaking the “truth” about what sin is and what sin isn’t. We want to picket, to hurl insults at elected officials, and to roll our eyes and to shake our heads at peoples’ lifestyle choices.
I don’t think we should privatize our faith; I think we should be free to be loud and proud—but let the love of God and the sacrifice of Christ be the message that leads the charge—both in heart and in action. I struggle when we expect those outside of Christ to act with a similar moral and spiritual code to those us who have been redeemed, who consequently have unbelievable knowledge and power thanks to the Holy Spirit.
I think this is Keller’s conclusion in this chapter. He calls on Christians to reject the secular arguments that would make us desire to quiet ourselves. But, in the same breath, he calls us toward a discourse that promotes peace, even with those who disagree and live in open rebellion to our most sacred of beliefs. I think of Jesus and the prostitute: he might have pointed out her sin and told her to sin no more, but what an easy to pill to swallow when first He lovingly stood in front of the stones and defended her.
I agree with everything you just said! Also, when he talked about not privatizing our beliefs as far as government is concerned, I struggle with that for just the reason you articulated here. Yes, my relationship with Christ informs my worldview and all of my opinions, but I’m not really sure when I should advocate for politically enforcing Biblical mandates that I only have the power to follow in the Holy Spirit. To me, it seems a better use of my time to advocate for the saving power of Christ, not that I do that nearly enough, though. I am so enjoying this book, it is really making me think!
YES!
Love this that you said, Erin: “I think we should be free to be loud and proud—but let the love of God and the sacrifice of Christ be the message that leads the charge—both in heart and in action.” Amen!
I appreciate your analogy of Jesus and the prostitute. It is one I used recently but not as well.
This is wonderfully worded. Thank you for your articulation of how I feel!
Amen to that! I love the way you put it. It’s a reminder that is especially poignant today, with so much conflict on both sides, politically and religiously. “Let the love of God and the sacrifice of Christ be the message the leads the charge.” Wonderful words.
First, thanks Stefanie. I am amazed at your summaries. Well done.
The third axiom, “Religion is a private affair,” struck a chord with me. I think it intertwines a bit with it’s “arrogant to insist your religion is right. As I started reading this book, there was an ombudsman meeting for the base. Some of the many questions asked of the base CO that evening were “What are the new rules about proselytizing? What can we say or not say? If someone asks me to pray for them and I do will my spouse’s job be in danger?” If you are familiar with the military this is one of those tricky situations. Of course it’s not right for someone to order you to practice a particular religion, attend a service, pray, etc. I think we are moving in a direction where we believe there is arrogance in insisting your religion is right and therefore you can not speak about your beliefs at all. If someone asks me how I get through a difficult situation, I need to be able to say, that’s not me. That’s God. It’s the Holy Spirit working in me. If they want to know how I can find joy, I need to be able to say it’s because I have salvation in Jesus. It doesn’t matter what your rank is, I don’t see that as proselytizing.
On a personal matter, I’m not so great at sharing what Jesus has done for me. Stefanie is correct. It’s an obligation. We were talking about this in my children’s Sunday School class this week. I’m telling them that it says the whole world, but not even bothering in my own back yard. Shame on me.
Brandi, did you receive answers to your questions at the meeting?
They weren’t my questions. They were from other ombudsman. New policies are taking place. The CO basically said so proselytizing and he would get back to them. The discussions stemmed from this article http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/05/01/Breaking-Pentagon-Confirms-Will-Court-Martial-Soldiers-Who-Share-Christian-Faith
I’ve been told that Weinstein’s group wasn’t paid but did consult with a group of officials discussing policies. As far as navy, no new policy has been released. It’s still a pretty hot topic around here.
Feel convicted on that as well, Brandi. Another good reason to be doing this study, God is shining a light on all sorts of areas that need Him!
what struck me – and please excuse my lack of clarity– it’s not nap time yet— was the following–
that all religions are the same— and what he wrote that that is impossible- as it is very clear that they don’t worship the same God-
also that we as christians– should be agents of peace– that if we would see ourselves as no different from others– b/c we aren’t– we are all sinners- and not be so proud– there’s nothing to be proud of — ephesians 2– God did it all– that we could be so much more of a positive influence.
also– one thing– when someone said that religions (christianity) is so exclusive)– the first thing that popped in my head was of course John 3:16, Romans 3:23– ALL have sinned- not just a few– and God sent his son to save us all–he loves the WHOLE world– yes- we need to recognize our sin and turn away from it and accept his grace and forgiveness.
sorry for lack of coherence and bad spelling- got 3 boys and food. nuff said.
emily, thank you for not using capital letters. =) i no longer feel alone!
with 6 kids i have no time for caps!!!!
i read chp 1 twice, underlined, took notes, prayed about it and still feel like i could spend another 10 weeks focusing just on the information in this chapter! i am of simple mind…after reading and re-reading keller’s words i can say, “yes, that makes sense!”…but to put it in my own words is still difficult, especially if i was in a situation sharing with a person who had these deep questions and criticisms. as i read, i vividly remembered questioning all of these things myself (i became a follower of CHrist at 31).
the thing i most loved about this chapter was keller’s words of encouragement…that we can confidently stand in our faith and yet do so in a loving way. before i believed, i didn’t even WANT to believe and so i would throw out criticisms about God (how could a loving God allow XYZ, why would God have children born to muslim parents if there is only one way to heaven, why are Christ followers so proud and judgmental and unhappy, etc…so ALL of the axioms resonated with me!). it was only when His Spirit began softening my heart to Him and removing my blindness to the things of God did those criticisms begin to fade. so i am grateful for keller’s call to empathetic and respectful discourse. it reminds me that there will be skeptics to whom i could read this book word for word but, if their heart is hard, they will not hear a thing. i am to love them regardless remembering that i, too, am by nature hard-hearted to the things of God.
Such an encouragement. Love his explanation that we, as true Christ followers, are to consider our Lord and how He loved those who didn’t ‘believe’. And, although this is impossible for us to model in our own fallen nature, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, we can make every effort to grasp the fringes of His perfection. And know that His love fully and completely covers us – regardless 🙂
The axiom that most resonated with me was “Each religion sees part of spiritual truth, but none can see the whole truth”. Before I became a Christian, I was always doubting which religion was correct, and for awhile this made me think that they all had pieces that were correct. I thought maybe there was an all-knowing God and everything else was just mixed up details. Even as a Christian now, I sometimes find myself wondering if a different religion has a better viewpoint on something. I loved the story he told about the elephant and how you can only see that others are wrong if you can see the whole truth. I really enjoyed the whole chapter! My favorite part at the end was when he said “God’s grace does not come to people who morally outperform others, but to those who admit their failure to perform and who acknowledge their need for a Savior”. What an awesome reminder of our constant failure to be our best selves and God’s ability to still show us grace despite it.
Overwhelming grace and unconditional love. He truly IS the perfect Father!
*like* (there’s not a like button, we need a like button! LOL)
Based on some conversations that I have engaged in recently, which brought up this very point, the axiom that stood out the most to me was, “Each religion sees part of spiritual truth, but none can see the whole truth.” As I had previously thought about this argument, I found that many of my thoughts in “rebuttal” to that axiom were based in Scripture and in my belief that Scripture is the very word of God, without error. Although those arguments are compelling, I was bugged by the fact that for a skeptic, they might not be as helpful since the skeptic’s view of the authority of Scripture likely would not match mine. I really enjoyed Keller’s logic-based rebuttal that might be more universally accepted by the skeptics, “How could you possibly know that no religion can see the whole truth unless you yourself have the superior, comprehensive knowledge of spiritual reality you just claimed that none of the religions have?”
Even more, I have been thinking back to the introduction and to the testimonies of June, Jeffrey and Kelly, and thinking about how, by means of their testimonies, both logical understanding and argument (“the evidence surrounding the claims of Christianity is simply overwhelming…”) and the fact that they witnessed believers satisfied in God helped draw them into their own personal knowledge of Him. So prayerful that these things we are learning, coupled by the joy of knowing Him would shine a great light on His goodness to others!
Acts 26:16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
love that verse! and i agree…i thought the logic-based rebuttal was helpful. i cannot knowledgeably discuss the ins and outs of science, history, etc with a skeptic and so often those discussions go nowhere…but keller’s argument cut through all of that and to the main point.
The axiom that resonated with me was the argument about leaving religion out of the public square, but how ridiculous that is because it is impossible to leave your convictions and values behind. Keller’s example of marriage to make the argument that “your views of what is “right “will be based on what you think the purpose of marriage is” describes exactly how I was before I had a faith. I balanced right and wrong based on my own understanding but mostly for my own comfort and personal peace. I can admit that what I proclaimed and how I practiced my “religion” prior to having a relationship with Jesus was more about me and how it fit into my plan for my life and what I thought the world should look like. Ultimately my relationship with Jesus brought me to the understanding that His plan is so much better than mine and comfort and peace is not about avoiding difficult trials and problems but having Him to walk through them with. The hot button political issues I was most adamant about before my faith like birth control and being pro-choice for me, really were justifications for a disordered life. But to get to the place where I realized that my life was disordered was wisdom given from the Holy Spirit. That wisdom about who God is and who we are is a gift that can soften even the hardest of hearts. For me, prayer is my way of evangelizing. I respect that everyone is on a journey in regards to their faith, (and I’m journeying right there with the best of them) so I always feel so out of my comfort zone to admonish anyone for their decisions but I can carry on a quiet apostolate of prayer among my friends, family and community for that gift of wisdom.
I really enjoyed Keller’s commentary on this axiom, too!
The axiom that stood out to me was the one about keeping faith private. It’s one I practice, wrongfully, in my own life after having been looked down upon for my faith on multiple occasions. I’ve had several people tell me over the years that I am narrow-minded or heartless even for not agreeing with some of the popular social issues. I’ve never been able to explain how I can love people even when I think what they’re doing is wrong. I tried to explain how I sin too, but it was never good enough of a response to a few people I know. One of the reasons I really wanted to do this study is to help me learn to defend my faith so I can have an answer. Plus, I know by strengthening my faith I’ll be better at leaning on the Holy Spirit to actually impart some wisdom through my ramblings. I feel like through this chapter God held up a mirror to me saying: I’ll help you have ways to defend your faith prepared, but you also need to trust me more to let me do the work through you. you just have to listen and follow. I’ll lead. Honestly, I feel a little like Moses right now, going lead? me? no way God, find someone else. and God replying with I’ll help you, let’s get going.
major ditto!!!!! well said!
great!
“Morality as religion”
We are allowed to practice and even “preach” some “moral values” such as tolerance, diversity, and do-not-offend as though these things are self-evidently “good”, but the moment ANYTHING is practiced / preached from a religious – ESPECIALLY a Christian – perspective… oh, brother! Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence!
I’ve often wondered what about “thou shalt not kill”, “thou shalt not steal”, and “love thy neighbor as thyself” are outrageous and hence ought to be replaced by some secular morality.
“…the moment ANYTHING is practiced / preached from a religious – ESPECIALLY a Christian – perspective… oh, brother! Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence!…”
Unfortunately, that’s true. I think that viewpoint could stem from the spectacularly public falls from grace some Christian leaders have had. Ted Haggard (meth & men) and Jimmy Swaggart (anything in a skirt) are only two that come immediately to mind. Both preached a very conservative, very “black & white” message, and when caught being very human, their excuses were as lame as Bill Clinton’s “but I didn’t inhale.” That hypocrisy, in my opinion, contributes to the perception of Christian arrogance.
First—my Kindle broke so I am unable to recall some specifics and this is probably where I will start getting into trouble.
I resonate the most with Argument 2,
Each religion sees part of spiritual truth, but none can see the whole truth
Religious belief is culturally and historically conditioned
I believe that God is the all of everything we know and that we do not know and that is amazing and overwhelming. I have a hard time believing that a being so vast only has one ultimate pathway. I believe that there is one pathway that is the right pathway for me and that is through the love of Jesus. I think this a wonderful (although not always easy) pathway to travel and I love bringing other people along with me on this journey. I also respect that there are different pathways for other people and that while not right for me, are right for them.
I didn’t really find that Keller’s arguments disprove (or support) my belief. I feel like all of the arguments he presented could also be used as arguments against Christianity because at its core, Christianity comes down to one’s faith. I do agree that we are all exclusive in our beliefs about religion and our relationship with God, but I don’t really understand how this could not be true—even when two or more people hold the same general beliefs, there will still be some differences because each person is unique and brings their own uniqueness to the table.
I completely agree with Keller that to privatize religion would be toxic. That would be restricting free-speech and in my opinion is slippery slope and I do feel like we are starting to slide down that slope– as herddog above posted, there seems to be a double standard for Christians being able to openly practice our faith without judgement.
Before I became a Christian I remember having a discussion with my grandfather that was similar to the statements you make (I have a hard time believing that a being so vast only has one ultimate pathway… I also respect that there are different pathways for other people and that while not right for me, are right for them), but I found that as I started to read the Bible and some of the claims made by Jesus Himself, such as, “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” I could no longer find a way to rationalize my thoughts. Reena, do you enjoy discussion? If so, if you were speaking to someone whose pathway did not include Jesus, how would you justify it to be a “right” way? And why could a Being so vast NOT have one ultimate pathway?
Hi Tish, I do like having discussions and I appreciate your comment and question.
I wouldn’t justify a pathway that does not include Jesus as the right pathway because the pathway with Jesus is right for me.
Why can’t their be only one pathway to a vast being?
To me, it simply doesn’t make sense. My belief in God is that while I think he is often disappointed and saddened by, not to mention angry about the choices we make, he loves us more than we are fully able to comprehend and he does want us, all of us, to find our way to Him. Why would he provide only one pathway that would make this possible? Of course there is always the argument that He has provided us with one pathway and why should he provide us with more. I think so much comes down to one’s personal faith and that one’s culture plays a factor.
Reena, I completely agree that God loves us more than we are fully able to comprehend as shown in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” It’s amazing, isn’t it?
Humbly I do share that we differ, however, in regards to the “pathway” to God. Since I know that my own thoughts are fallible (psalm 94:11, gen 6:5) and so far from God’s (Isaiah 55:8-9 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.”) I cannot base my faith on what makes sense to me but instead what God has revealed about Himself. I’ve found that what makes sense to me changes (based on circumstances or new info learned or whatever), but God never, ever changes (James 1:17).
Based on His Word, I have come to trust that there is only one way to salvation and reconciliation with God, and that is through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12 states, “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” and 1 Ti 2:5 provides assurance with “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” We also know that our God is a God of order and peace, not of chaos or confusion (1 Cr 14:33), so providing only one way of salvation allows us to have confidence and assurance that the rules won’t change or that we might not be on the right path. He makes it perfectly clear so that our frail and doubtful hearts can have confidence (the entire book of Hebrews).
Another thought that popped into my mind since you mentioned culture was the Scripture verse Stefanie shared on FB for anyone wanting to memorize. It is Matt 28:18-20: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” We see Jesus telling His disciples to go into all the nations and share the gospel…the truth of Himself as THE Savior. If God had intended different cultures to have different paths of salvation, then going to the nations would be pointless.
Again, I humbly share this only because I have wrestled with these same thoughts (your words in your original post were so familiar to me!) and found Scripture to be more trustworthy and solid and pure than my own thoughts.
This study is proving to be very deep. In fact, I find myself reading the chapter 3 times to get what Keller is saying. I feel that the more I get to know, the less I realize I know, if that makes sense.
The axiom that most resonated with me is number 4, it is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it.
For some reason I have inadvertently bought into this. I think it might be the muddy waters between doctrinal truth and cultural/historical beliefs and traditions. Since coming to know Christ later in life I’ve had an inherent belief that folks who were raised in the faith must have all the answers and know the walk. And I’m not pointing a critical finger at those believers; I’m wondering why I’ve believed that. In so thinking, I’ve fallen into the trap of cultural norms. If so-and-so does such-and-such and believes thus-and-so, then it must be okay. And then comes doubt. Doubt in absolute truth. My ‘walk’ and my version of Truth gradually conforms to societal standards. The more I conform, the more I justify my inappropriate responses. But yet, the Spirit dwells within me, so I know I’m wrong, and the battle rages within. It would be completely arrogant for a sinner such as myself to insist that my religion is right.
I love what Keller wrote: “God’s grace does not come to people who morally outperform others, but to those who admit their failure to perform and who acknowledge their need for a Savior.”
And that the Christian life should be marked by more honesty, more humility and more selfless love than any other.
My response to Christ should cause others to draw nearer to him. Just imagine what ‘cultural norms’ would look like then!
It is DEEP! I find myself reading one sentence over and over again. Of course, this is quite heavy compared to all those children’s books I’ve been reading for the last couple of years!
Glad I am not the only one feeling this way. Kind of making me question my intelligence. Deborah, your comment about the children’s books made me laugh. This book is probably the deepest I have read since college 16+ years ago, but it is also the reason why I signed up for this study. It is making me think!
i’m with you guys! brain stretching!!!
The axiom that resonated with me the most is “religion is a private affair and should be kept as such”. It bothers me in the fact that everything else in the world is out there , in your face, no matter how offensive it may be to others. But we are supposed to keep quiet about our faith as not to offend anyone. We can’t have prayer in schools or in public meetings because it may offend someone who doesn’t have the same beliefs.. I love the quote by Ronald Reagan “If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under”. I certainly don’t agree that one religion is more superior than another but I do believe that we should have the right to have our faith respected rather than hidden. I am not for trying to force my beliefs on anyone. I just think that there is space to coincide peacefully with whatever your religion may be and to work together to bring more peace and unity in each other’s lives. Its always amazing to me that after something terrible happens in the world that is what everyone goes back to-our faith and humanity-unity brought about by the common bond of prayer and supporting each other . I just feel like if we could be more proactive than retroactive that it would make a big difference in the world today and maybe change some hearts that have not had any exposure to God in their lives.
Ann– I really like your post!
yes!!!!!! so well put!!!! totally agree
So true!!
Yes, love “more proactive than retroactive”
The axiom that resonated most with me was also, “it is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it” . My husband is Jewish. I was not at all religious when we got married. The first time I took my young children to church, the church lady saw our last name and asked about its origination. I told her my husband was Jewish. She then told my son that she would pray for his daddy as he would go to hell for his lack of belief. My daughter also heard this conversation. The result, we did not attend church for a LONG time, my son tentatively believes in Jesus and my daughter completely rejects her Jewish heritage. In this instance, this woman attempted to “communicate” her belief and did so in a way that dishonored my children’s father, my husband and effectively tainted their view of what Christianity really is. At least what the heart of Christianity is. I struggle with trying to convert others. Conversion often comes in the form of acting superior to others. In the beginning of this chapter, Keller talks about belief in one religion often making people feel superior to others. Almost as if they have the answer while others are still floundering. It becomes a very slippery conversation. Communicating the truth of Christ without doing so to boost my own ego or perhaps most importantly to me, doing so without judging and condemning the other person is incredible hard. Sometimes, I wonder if the most effective means of “conversion” is not discourse but intentional actions which communicate the love of Christ.
Oh my goodness, Jenny. My mouth fell open at the comment that woman made to you in front of your children. Can NOT believe it.
Completely agree with you. As Christians we can never express, or even secretly harbor, a sense of superiority over anyone. If we do, it reveals a wrong understanding of Jesus and the Gospel.
exactly– if we, as Christians, would REMEMBER (ahh- the caps!) that we are NO different from any one else— that we were and still are sinners (Romans 3:23) and that is only through God’s grace that we have been set free- not by our works, our attitude– i too dislike the term conversion– b/c it insinuates that WE are doing something– when really what I feel that God asks us to do is to share His truth and love- and leave the rest to Him.
Exactly… it’s not about us and all about Jesus. We are to be vessels filled with Him and empty of ourselves. I just wish I could say I was empty of me. Good thing He is able to take my messes and work it into something beautiful.
My hope each day is for others to see Jesus in me, not for me, but for his Glory.
yikes, jenny! i am so sorry! when i first became a Christian, i was so eager for my mom to know my newfound love that i am sure i came across as prideful or superior. totally misguided, though my intent was from the heart. she didn’t want to hear that she was “lost” or “needed a Savior”…that sounded condemning…and yet, for me, learning that i was lost and had a Savior was so freeing! it can be so difficult…and that is why we are called to “not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.” actions of love speak so strongly and, unless our words are guided by the Spirit, our human wretchedness will mess things up!
Do I have to pick one? Two of these are pretty real to me.
The one that resonates most with my Christian walk and my history of sharing my faith is the third one. I tend not to want to push people too hard or make them uncomfortable, I want to be politically correct (this is the most embarrassing!), and don’t want to get too personal. There’s different degrees people are willing to share any given piece of information and you never know where that person is on the curve. Some people would print out their prescription history for you while others will barely open their front door, right?
The other one that resonates with me is due to more recent circumstances as I begin to understand the persecution others endure in other parts of the world. Their loved ones being imprisoned, beaten, or murdered simply because they profess their faith. Hearing stories from the victim’s family and the shock they’re in and the pain they’ve experienced is very real. This is generally the case in countries where they have (currently or historically) tried to outlaw religion. The notion that intolerance and violence would disappear seems counterintuitive to me, but that is probably just due to my experience and perspective.
I’m going to finish reading the rest of the comments now!
Argument # 2 resonated with me the most. As a child I was raised Catholic and feared God. When my sister got married she married a Jewish man. She was talking to my Grandmother( who was raised Baptist but converted to Catholic when she married my Grandfather) what was she going to do when they had kids? My Grandmother said it doesn’t matter what you raise them, pick something, we are all trying to get to the same place. I never forgot that and believe it’s true. I have a problem with religion not God.
“…I have a problem with religion not God.” Amen! I love that line, Ruby!
Oh, I forgot to ask above. Are there going to be some non-Christian perspectives, too?
OOOhhhh! So much good stuff ladies. I have spent so much time reading and re-reading your entries. I had feel like the axiom that spoke to me was, ‘It is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it”. I specifically struggle with my family. My mother was the spiritual leader of my family and one of the few (if not only one) on both sides of my family that went to church. I have been so ingrained with being polite and respectfull of others that now as an adult dealing with my family I do not speak truth and boldness about my faith.
I love the encouragement that Keller gives you through his explainations. So much highlighting is in my book and I have gone back several times to look at it as I have read the comments.
oh girls. my brain hurts. i was going to read this digitally (which totally goes against the grain for me. i love the smell of a new book. but it is convenient to have it always available, so i thought, ok, i’ll try it….) but i have GOT to get a REAL BOOK to do this the right way. this is too deep to be scrolling through the ‘pages’ on my phone trying to find the place i need to re-read…for the fourth time. whew.
anyway, i really did enjoy the whole chapter. it seemed there was something that was an Aha! type moment in each section. It totally made me think of an article that a friend of mine had posted on her facebook page about a week ago. I will put the link here b/c i absolutely loved the way Jesus got a foothold in this woman’s life.
I also loved this quote: “How could you possibly know that no religion can see the whole truth unless you yourself have the superior, comprehensive knowledge of spiritual reality you just claimed that none of the religions have?”
the bottom line for me is this: if i am wrong, and Jesus wasn’t who he said he was, then what do I have to lose? if this life is all there is and when i die there is just nothing, then i have lived a good life and it is over. but if (because!) Jesus IS who he claimed to be, and he is the son of God and he is the way the truth and the life, then i have everything to gain! i don’t feel the need to go around telling everyone that their religion is wrong. Jesus didn’t do that. Why should I?
Erin posted in a precious comment about the Jesus and the prostitute…”I think of Jesus and the prostitute: he might have pointed out her sin and told her to sin no more, but what an easy to pill to swallow when first He lovingly stood in front of the stones and defended her.” I want to be the one who CARES. The world needs to see and feel that from those of us who carry the name Christian.
anyway, here is the link to the article. I highly recommend it. i don’t usually click on articles, so i think it was a God thing that I did.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html?start=1
~~looks like you may have to copy and paste. i don’t know how to make it linky in a comment. sorry! =}
thanks for the article…will check it out!
Dee Dee, I am reading it digitally, and i have to get the book! I’ve been printing Stefanie’s summary just so I have paper to highlight 🙂 This subject matter is too deep for me to simply read it digitally. Going to order the book NOW!
The one that resonated with me the most was “it is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it.” Deep down I do not feel it is arrogant, however society says it is and I tend to keep quiet sometimes so others won’t think that I think I am better than them. I think quite the opposite because I know just how much I need Jesus to save me. I’m afraid sometimes I may come across as judging or criticizing and seeming to expect perfection and maybe I do, but it is not my intent and so once again I stay quiet when I shouldn’t. I truly feel that Christianity is a religion of love and inclusivity and pray each day that I reflect this to others. Jesus cam to love and save us not to judge and condemn. He shows us, the sinners that we all are, a way out through his great love for us and provides the example for how we all should be.
Argument three really made me think. I liked his argument that, basically, we are all coming at our experiences in this world with a certain view-point – and the religious secular viewpoint can be a powerful influence for those who follow it. Just as Christianity can be a powerful influence for those who follow it. (sorry this is a bit muddled! I’m up too late! But wanted to chime in and let you know that I’m doing the study and enjoying it 🙂 )
The axiom that resonated with me was – ” Religious belief is too culturally and historically conditioned to be ‘truth’ – and I was surprised that it did. I found myself saying YES to Berger’s account that possibly “people believe what they do largely because they are socially conditioned to do so.” I’ve always wondered if I had been born in a different country how different my views would be about Christianity… That; however, does not take in to account the work of the Holy Spirit and how His reach is not bound by any society/cultural/geographic boundaries… Loving that this chapter alone has already made me chew on a lot and get me thinking – a LOT!
Argument 3 is the one that spoke to me. I don’t do well with speaking out about my faith to others – as a ‘recruiting’ tool I keep thinking about what I have done when in situations where people are trying to persuade me in one direction or another. I tend to get oppositional and argumentative. Where faith is involved, I believe if I live a Christian lifestyle my action should speak louder than words. I know that as a Christian I sin, I sin often. I try my best and hope that my sins don’t affect others negatively.
I respect all religions and try to see the good in all. And for that, I tend to have one set of rules for myself and one for others.
I keep thinking of the people who come to your door to ‘share the good news’ how many of us let them in? I know that I personally don’t, but obviously they must get some growth by the door to door business model which is why they keep doing it.
Funny story…one Sunday many years ago, my brother refused to go to church with us. When we came home, we could hear him talking to someone about religion. Someone had come to the door and Nicholas was feeling particularly feisty and let them in. They were in the house for about 2 hours discussing The Bible. Finally they asked to leave. My mom (40 years Catholic School teacher) said God made sure Nicholas had his religion lesson that day!
I am feeling like there should be a #4, which would be Proclaim Your Religion (or something along those lines).
I don’t necessarily agree with any of the three options Keller has mentioned, though I do understand his arguments and agree with them. I believe Freedom of Religion should continue to reign and people shouldn’t feel weird about embracing their religion and inspiring others; although, I do agree that conversions should be left up to the powers that be.
If people want to “shout it from the rooftops,” good for them! I also happen to believe that actions speak louder than words, so for those of us learning how to embrace that notion and walk the walk, it requires much trust in and leaning on the Holy Spirit, doesn’t it??
Wow! Love reading all the comments. Making me think deeper which this mind hasn’t done in many years. I kind of subscribe by the K.I.S.S. method and this is stretching me, but in a good way.
I resonate with the axiom “it is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it”. I have found myself guilty of this and made me question why do I believe what I truly believe. I was raised in the church, but it was my parents faith. It wasn’t until I was about to graduate from college when my relationship with Jesus became my own and it became real. Jesus came to us, for us. We don’t have to work towards accomplishing certain tasks/ pillars to make it to heaven. He has been so evident in my life and powerful, that I desire others who struggle to have that same experience/ peace. I am not an evangelist, but have been inspired by others who silently glow and have brought non-believers to Christ by their simple presence.
While I am still digesting the complexity of first chapter, the axiom that resonates with me is “keep religion completely private”.
If you consider the life of Christ, His ministry was very public and He never apologized for acting on behalf of His conviction to surrender to the Father and do His will. In the book, Keller talks about the philosopher Richard Rorty who believes that an argument grounded in a religious belief is a “conversation stopper” and that religious faith must remain a strictly private affair. Jesus was not afraid to be a conversation stopper and shed light into the darkness. He wasn’t worried about how the religious leaders would respond when he chose to heal on the Sabbath. He was more concerned about meeting people where they were and touching their hearts for eternity.
I am a pleaser by nature and it is easy for me shy away from conversations with people I know who differ in religious beliefs. Keller says in his introduction…”People who blithely go through life too busy or indifferent to ask hard questions about why they believe as they do will find themselves defenseless against either the experience of tragedy or the probing questions of a smart skeptic.”
Oh that I may have the courage to dig deeper and ask the hard questions…to live a life of conviction that reflects the love of Christ in a way that draws others to Him.
that quote resonated with me as well amy. I do believe that sometimes I might be ‘too busy or indifferent’, and maybe I have chalked it up to ‘faith’, when in reality it could be a lack of a deep desire to know the why behind what i believe.
yes!!!
Amy,
Your post reminds me of something Brennan Manning wrote in “A Glimpse of Jesus”:
“The historical Jesus was no outlaw, and nothing in the gospel lends support to the notion that he was a maverick harboring a grudge against the world, the law, or the authorities. Still his family thought he needed custodial care (Mark 3:21), the Pharisees suspected a demonic seizure (Mark 3:22), and bystanders called him some very bad names. Jesus listened to another voice, sought his spiritual direction elsewhere, and seemed unafraid of what people might say about him or what people might do to him. (p. 118)”
How glorious to be so in tune with the Father that you don’t hear/don’t care what other people say or do! The part that gets me is….Jesus listened to another voice…..Wow!
First Off – I LOVE Reading all of your comments on this! I’ve been thinking about how to respond to the first chapter since this was posted on Tuesday. Along with many of you, I agree that this book is definitely not an easy read and at times I find myself rereading sections several times.
I am trying to apply 2 things when I read this book. 1.) I pray that Jesus would reveal Himself to me as I read and 2.) I ask God “what are you calling me to DO in response”
So in response to the question that Stephanie posted, I feel like I can relate to each point in some way but the one that keeps coming back to me and how I can respond is “Argument 3 – Religion is a private affair and should be kept as such”
I feel like it’s not possible to keep you religion a private affair because for me, my faith should depict how I choose to live my life. My choices and actions are based on what I believe in. Now of course I struggle with this daily. I want to be able to be a living shining light for all to see but it’s not always easy. I fall down often. But this chapter has reminded and challenged me to keep it up. If I choose to make my faith “public” and not private I can perhaps challenge others to question their believes and how they live their lives.
Lots of good stuff here ladies – this study is definitely challenging and stretching me in a good way 🙂
The axiom that resonated the most with me was “it is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it.” I am a reserved, quiet person by nature, and the last thing I want to do is offend someone or create conflict. I tend to use that to justify to myself why it’s okay not to share my faith openly (verbally) even though I know we have an obligation to do just that — and should have a burning desire to do that. It’s easy to get caught up in thinking I don’t want someone of another faith trying to convert me to their religion, so why should I try to convert them? If I am a true disciple and honestly believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, why would I not want to share that with the world?? Unfortunately, putting that belief into action proves to be a challenge.
the two ideas that really resonated with me were:
“each religion sees part of spiritual truth, but none can see the whole truth” and “it is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it.” I think these two axioms go hand in hand…
I am a strong believer, but I don’t have a super long history as a Christian (was saved at 13, fell away, and found my way back 11 years ago), so I often question if I know enough yet to even really witness to people. I share my faith often and I’m really not shy about it, however if I am forced to defend my faith, I don’t really feel like I have enough solid biblical knowledge to adequately defend it. Sometimes, I find myself wondering if I knew more about other religions or if I had been raised in a different religion, how I would believe. One question I have always had and have never really studied is, if Jesus was a Jew, why do we not choose to also be Jewish? If the Jews are the chosen people, why is being Jewish not the only “right” religion.
I don’t have much knowledge of other religions, so I can only speculate on there being some truth in other religions. I have to assume that the followers of other religions believe those religions are 100% accurate, just as I believe that Christianity is correct. Also, there are so many diverse types of Christianity and variations within Christianity, it is sometimes difficult to distinguish the truth of the bible versus interpretations by the various types of Christians…ie Baptist, Catholic, LDS, non-denominational. I am open to sharing that I believe in God and that my life before God was a great big mess and has changed so much through the grace of God. However, if questioned more deeply, I would probably back down pretty fast because of the aforementioned axioms. This is why I’m really excited to dig deeper and search for the answers, so I can defend my beliefs instead of looking like a bumbling idiot. 🙂
Bumbling idiots unite….and bumble no more! We can do this!
thanks for being so open and honest – I can TOTALLY relate to how you feel! I get confused and don’t want to miss speak which often means i don’t speak at all – sad but true 🙁
I can definitely relate to how you feel. Being able to defend my faith when I share and am questioned is a big motivation for me with this study. I also get what you mean about different denominations. A lot of times I think of it as where a person’s heart is. If a Christian truly loves God, accepts Christ as their savior, and does their best to follow His will, God will accept them and love them, whether or not they think it is okay to drink alcohol sometimes or it isn’t. I’ve gone to so many different denominations of churches, and talked to so many different people, that I think my personal views are pretty mixed. But between all Christians, it is Christ that unites us. And that is the most important piece of the puzzle.
I guess the idea that resonates most with me is all major religions are equally valid and basically teach the same thing.
I don’t believe that all religions are equally valid and basically teach the same thing, but here’s what I do think: I believe we were created to worship and I believe we were all created with a kind of God-shaped void in us. So, on some level, I think all people are seeking to fill that void. Sometimes, people gravitate to what’s familiar (the way their family/culture believes, etc.) or to what’s convenient.
I can remember there being an uproar on Facebook from some of my Christian friends after they went to see Eat, Pray, Love. Some were pitying the girl in the movie for not finding Jesus. Some scorned her searching tactics. And sure, the movie would’ve ended better for me if she had discovered the gospel truth, but I just applauded her courage in seeking.
I’m having a hard time putting into words exactly how I feel about this. I was a seeker once. I’d like to think that I don’t judge people based on their beliefs. I struggle (like a lot of other people have mentioned) with sharing my faith with unbelievers. I like how Brennan Manning put it in The Ragamuffin Gospel: To evangelize a person is to say to him or her: you, too, are loved by God in the Lord Jesus. I guess it’s just that simple, accepting and experiencing the extravagant love of the Father and letting other people know that they’re loved, too.
Angie…good stuff, thanks for sharing! God-shaped void…yes, we were created for Him and nothing else can truly satisfy, though we try with all of our might to find satisfaction in things of the world. I have never seen Eat. Love, Pray but, since I did not come to know Christ til I was 31, I could probably relate to the main character’s seeking! I remember diving into all kinds of things like feng shui and witches’ balls and dream catchers and books on buddhism, but I refused to seek God. I think the difficult thing is that, while seekers, we can be so pick-and-choose about God…I wanted His blessing but did not want His authority over me. I wanted to know I was loved but did not want to relinquish control over my life (as if I really had it!). I wanted the assurance of “heaven” but did not want to admit I was a sinner. I was hard-hearted like Pharaoh, even though God, in His mercy and long suffering, sent “plagues” my way. So, I think the simplicity of letting people know they are loved is right on (for God so loved the world that He gave His only Son …) yet, I know from my experience, until I understood that I was a wretched sinner constantly in rebellion against God (in contrast to what I originally thought of myself in that I was basically a good person and tried hard to be nice to people), I did not truly understand my desperate need for that love (…that whoever believes in him should not PERISH but have eternal life). It’s crazy how the more you see the darkness of your own heart, the more you treasure CHrist which is what we desire for everyone since He alone can fill that God shaped void! Sometimes I find this to be an area of difficulty for me: allowing the Spirit to do His work of conviction in the lives of those I love (no Bible thumping from me) and yet also not watering down the gospel message that we are sinners in need of a Savior.
Ok, I think I’m finally ready to go!
The axiom that resonated most with me is “It is arrogant to insist your religion is right and convert others to it”. Logically I know this hold no basis. Arrogance would be to withhold the Truth from someone because of some presupposition we have about them. And yet, most of the time that’s exactly what I end up doing.
I am guilty of wanting to please man by holding my tongue and not giving my reasons for being a believer just to not get into an “argument” or even a deep discussion. I’m so terrified of losing my words, or not being able to find an answer to their accusation that I don’t even want to try. Strangers and extended parts of my family are the worst, because I don’t want to leave a bad impression of what a Christan is (strangers) and because I don’t want to offend my family (I’m one of the rare ones that left their faith. They’re not enthused about it.)
However, by not allowing myself to respond to their criticisms of Christians, I am too in some way agreeing with what they have to say. It’s just so hard for me to remember that I am not the one doing the ‘conversion” but rather the Holy Spirit in me who works through me. It is my job to put my arrogance and presupposition (which is really just judgement when you boil it down! Yikes!) about others aside and get out of His way to let Him speak into my life and the lives of others.
loved this! thanks for sharing!!!
I am getting this in under the wire before the next chapter post tomorrow but better late than never! I identify most with the religion is a private area argument. First of all I am a private person and have never been one to share my most private thoughts and feeling with strangers or casual friends. My general thought is that the check out lady does not really “want” to know how my day is really going and that even if she did, people who don’t know me well don’t need to know everything about me. The downside to this is that I can have problems opening up with my closer friends and family about my struggles and how Jesus helps me get through those struggles. I am sure it is my pride that holds me back and doesn’t allow me to be honest with how I am really doing. At least on paper it is nice to think I look somewhat put together but I know that I need to work on being more authentic.
Secondly I struggle with how to fight for my convictions while not being a stumbling block to unbelievers. I grew up in a fire and brimstone environment and still to this day don’t think many people have been converted by being told they were going to hell. Also I have attended very politically active churches in the past where unfortunately my pastor’s impassioned stance on a public policy issue has caused friends that I invited to never return to the church again. While I agreed with my pastor about the issue in question, I think it is very easy to get caught up in the process of legislating a sin while forgetting about the sinner who needs the love of Jesus. So I struggle with where is the balance of speaking out but still being loving and drawing others to Christ with my words. Unfortunately I probably go more to the side of not saying anything than risking offense. Hopefully as I mature with my faith I will know better when to speak and when just to love.
It is arrogant to insist your religion is right and to convert others to it. Wow, it so resonated with me I am having a hard time arguing against it.Not that I do not believe it, I totally do. It is that my actions really do not support my beliefs. I talk open and honest with those I know are believers. I rarely, seek out non-believers to convert. I never want to offend anyone (about anything) so I find it hard to stand up for what I believe unless pushed. Oh so sorry I even had to type that!